very interesting discussion. two cents from a non-medical practitioner: strong memories might support one's ability to 'listen' to the predictive brain. where is our memory stored? probably in ways and places in and throughout the whole body, as dancers, musicians and people from cultures with a strong oral tradition will say.
As a therapist I will also agree that body memories can sit all over the body. Most in the core, shoulders and neck. Today I helped a person who as a child was "kidnapped" of other children. The knife in his back provoked a bodymemory in this area of the body with fear. So it is a combination of sensory input and the emotions we have at the time. This gives us a "symptom" and decades after people go to doctor. Butterflies in the stomach is a good example of a bodymemory (Fear of an examen gone wrong last time)
I think it is the other way around. Because of of these memmories we start to predict: I am not good at examens, I alwas fail, I am never good enough. this is the bodys way to tell you that you should stay away from that fear. If you do it anyway there is a risk that you make a worse perfomance as you focus is on how bad you are :-)
agree. I wonder if those stored memories come from experiences. if so, there might be a strong subjective load attached to them, based on our interpretation of the experience at the time. which, over time, might change, either in a good way (enriching, leading to wisdom) or to the contrary, become painful and traumatic. life is beautifully complicated :-))
It is new to science. So I can only give you my experience. :-)
It is your instincts that install them. and they do not change before you do trauma healing in one way or another. It can be you thinking/talking about your life with a good friend but probably you need some help the first couple of times, until you learn it yourself.
Solving trauma do not lead to wisdom. It lead to a fealing of "what happened here, why did I ever react so dramatic on this".... and a few hours later. "which trauma, I do not know what you are talking about". that is part of it.. forgotten, neutralized gone. Not a problem, not in your memory.
You learn some general wisdom: just continue, some day you will manage, I am comming closer to my autentic self. And that person is wise because s(he) knows how it started. Was that understandable?
Do you mean: If the knowledge you get during life, can be part of the healing?
That is a philosophical question. I have learned how to help myself and other people heal. And what I teach them they can use on themself later.
So the question is yes.
And dependent on how big the trauma is you can heal it yourself. If you got bitten by a big dog as a child and have avoided dogs for decades. then your friend gets a lovely small puppy and you convince yourself that it can not be dangerous. And even if it grows up you have so many good experiences that you heal the trauma.
In practice I think it is very difficult to do it yourself... until you have learned how.
You can turn it around, the traumas you can heal are gone, maybe even without you knowing how. And you are stuck with the ones you cannot :-)
Think about the birth of your children (if any) or last Christmas. Maybe a warm feeling (or love) come to you. That is a body memory. A memory combined with an emotion = body memory. They can be small or big with pleasant emotions or with unpleasant emotions. (big unpleasant body memories caused by accidents, death, violence, or abuse we call traumas)
Most of our emotions come from being in a herd. If you think about a cat, which is not a herd animal, and a dog, which is a herd animal. Guilt, shame, and loneliness are e.g. herd feelings. They help the herd to build up in a way it can reward or punish a person.
If you do not behave, a cat will just leave you. A dog will try to please you.
We are punished with guilt, shame, blame, and exclusion if we do not behave. And later we integrate these feelings, so we can punish ourselves if we just think of not applying the rules. That is why we e.g. do not take off all our clothes in good weather. "what will other people think".
This reminds me of a quote by Gabor Mate: “People have two needs: attachment and authenticity. When authenticity threatens attachment, attachment trumps authenticity”.
Ah, and I want to be a cat. How can I do that? ;) I’m sick of shame and guilt.
That was a good one of Gabor. but I am not sure about the conclusion he makes.
The last 3 years have shown that 10-30 percent of population have chosen authenticity higher than attachment. I do not know if you understand this hint. But a few people trust themself more than the authorities.
very interesting discussion. two cents from a non-medical practitioner: strong memories might support one's ability to 'listen' to the predictive brain. where is our memory stored? probably in ways and places in and throughout the whole body, as dancers, musicians and people from cultures with a strong oral tradition will say.
Thank you for the comment. :-)
As a therapist I will also agree that body memories can sit all over the body. Most in the core, shoulders and neck. Today I helped a person who as a child was "kidnapped" of other children. The knife in his back provoked a bodymemory in this area of the body with fear. So it is a combination of sensory input and the emotions we have at the time. This gives us a "symptom" and decades after people go to doctor. Butterflies in the stomach is a good example of a bodymemory (Fear of an examen gone wrong last time)
I think it is the other way around. Because of of these memmories we start to predict: I am not good at examens, I alwas fail, I am never good enough. this is the bodys way to tell you that you should stay away from that fear. If you do it anyway there is a risk that you make a worse perfomance as you focus is on how bad you are :-)
agree. I wonder if those stored memories come from experiences. if so, there might be a strong subjective load attached to them, based on our interpretation of the experience at the time. which, over time, might change, either in a good way (enriching, leading to wisdom) or to the contrary, become painful and traumatic. life is beautifully complicated :-))
It is new to science. So I can only give you my experience. :-)
It is your instincts that install them. and they do not change before you do trauma healing in one way or another. It can be you thinking/talking about your life with a good friend but probably you need some help the first couple of times, until you learn it yourself.
Solving trauma do not lead to wisdom. It lead to a fealing of "what happened here, why did I ever react so dramatic on this".... and a few hours later. "which trauma, I do not know what you are talking about". that is part of it.. forgotten, neutralized gone. Not a problem, not in your memory.
You learn some general wisdom: just continue, some day you will manage, I am comming closer to my autentic self. And that person is wise because s(he) knows how it started. Was that understandable?
yes, very understandable, TQ. still one question: might one's acquired wisdom be part of healing trauma?
Maybe we have a translation issue here?
Do you mean: If the knowledge you get during life, can be part of the healing?
That is a philosophical question. I have learned how to help myself and other people heal. And what I teach them they can use on themself later.
So the question is yes.
And dependent on how big the trauma is you can heal it yourself. If you got bitten by a big dog as a child and have avoided dogs for decades. then your friend gets a lovely small puppy and you convince yourself that it can not be dangerous. And even if it grows up you have so many good experiences that you heal the trauma.
In practice I think it is very difficult to do it yourself... until you have learned how.
You can turn it around, the traumas you can heal are gone, maybe even without you knowing how. And you are stuck with the ones you cannot :-)
Thank you, Lilian. And here's another story about Parkinson's that you might find meaningful. 💜 https://shorturl.at/yfIce
Hi. Thanks. Maybe let him read some of the material I have... We are finding out what to do about it :-)
Lilian, what do you mean by tribal memories?
I think you mean body memories?
Think about the birth of your children (if any) or last Christmas. Maybe a warm feeling (or love) come to you. That is a body memory. A memory combined with an emotion = body memory. They can be small or big with pleasant emotions or with unpleasant emotions. (big unpleasant body memories caused by accidents, death, violence, or abuse we call traumas)
Whoops! I meant tribal feelings (from the image with the red and yellow squares).
I get what you mean by body memories. Which somehow relate to felt perception too.
Most of our emotions come from being in a herd. If you think about a cat, which is not a herd animal, and a dog, which is a herd animal. Guilt, shame, and loneliness are e.g. herd feelings. They help the herd to build up in a way it can reward or punish a person.
If you do not behave, a cat will just leave you. A dog will try to please you.
We are punished with guilt, shame, blame, and exclusion if we do not behave. And later we integrate these feelings, so we can punish ourselves if we just think of not applying the rules. That is why we e.g. do not take off all our clothes in good weather. "what will other people think".
Is that understandable?
This reminds me of a quote by Gabor Mate: “People have two needs: attachment and authenticity. When authenticity threatens attachment, attachment trumps authenticity”.
Ah, and I want to be a cat. How can I do that? ;) I’m sick of shame and guilt.
Shame and guilt is what I call body memmories. they can be resolved. By a good therapist. just say when you are ready. ;-)
That was a good one of Gabor. but I am not sure about the conclusion he makes.
The last 3 years have shown that 10-30 percent of population have chosen authenticity higher than attachment. I do not know if you understand this hint. But a few people trust themself more than the authorities.
I hope we are going in that direction. And follow the authority of our bodies and minds.
Which stats do you refer to?